Sustainability can be framed as checklists, certifications, and corporate reporting. That framing misses the point. Sustainability is the decision to build something that can endure without leaving a trail of exhaustion, mistrust, or harm behind it. It is long-term thinking paired with short-term discipline, rooted in ethics that do not change when the pressure rises.

On The Bliss Business Podcast, we sat down with Amanda Fornal, founder, executive coach, startup advisor, and business consultant with more than twenty five years of experience in technology, transformation, and change management. Through Orange SFM, she supports leaders building resilient, human-centered organizations. She is also the creator of Investing in Kindness and the founder of Alifari, a storytelling project shaped by interviewing 612 people across more than 75 countries about how they define love.

Sustainability Lives in Time Horizons

Amanda offered a definition that cut through the noise. Sustainability is the ability to be happy today and happy tomorrow, while making sure other people can also be happy tomorrow. That means thinking beyond quick wins, beyond the next quarter, and beyond the common habit of optimizing only for short-term results.

Stephen added a powerful lens from Indigenous wisdom: consider how today’s decisions affect seven generations from now. That is not poetic language. It is a strategic discipline. When leaders repeatedly make decisions that benefit the next quarter at the expense of the next decade, they create hidden fragility. Eventually, the organization pays for it in talent loss, customer distrust, and systems that cannot adapt.

Investing in Kindness Is Strategic, Not Naive

One of the most memorable parts of the conversation was Amanda’s origin story for Investing in Kindness. Someone told her they preferred investing in sociopathic founders over kind founders. Amanda found that worldview not only disturbing, but strategically shortsighted. She built her work around a simple hypothesis: if leaders do good, people feel safe and respected, and that should show up in the bottom line. The academic research supported her.

She explained why the mechanism is so logical. When people feel safe at work, when they experience respect and loyalty from leadership, they show up differently. They contribute more. They innovate more. They stay longer. Kindness becomes a performance multiplier because it creates the conditions where human energy is available for the mission instead of consumed by self-protection.

Amanda also clarified a key misconception. Kindness is not sugarcoating the truth. Kindness is truthfulness delivered with compassion. It is direct feedback without humiliation. It is accountability without cruelty. That definition is what makes kindness scalable.

The Real Cost of Disengagement

Tullio connected the kindness conversation to a hard reality. If most of your workforce is not engaged, you are effectively paying full salaries for partial output. That is not a values problem. It is a strategic problem. And it is often self-inflicted. When companies treat people transactionally, people respond transactionally. They stop investing discretionary effort. They do what is required and protect the rest of their energy.

Amanda’s point was not that every employee will respond the same way to kindness, but that as a general rule, respect and care increase loyalty, and loyalty increases performance. Leaders who refuse to adopt this are not being tough. They are leaving measurable value on the table.

Ethics Scale When Risk Is Shared

A subtle but important thread in the episode was equivalence. Tullio pointed out a pattern that blocks innovation inside many companies. CEOs can take risks with limited personal downside. Employees often cannot. When a leader demands innovation but punishes mistakes, they are asking people to do something they are structurally discouraged from doing.

Amanda reinforced that psychological safety is the foundation of innovation. People have to feel safe enough to try, fail, and learn. That is kindness in practice. It is also sustainability. Companies that extract perfection under fear will burn through talent and creativity. Companies that allow measured risk will generate learning speed, resilience, and momentum.

Systems Matter More Than Intentions

Stephen pressed for something practical: what systems help ethics and sustainability move from philosophy to execution. Amanda gave an answer many leaders resist because it requires humility. Systems have to evolve. Processes must be revisited and adapted as the organization learns. Whether you are one founder or a 20,000-person company, sustainability depends on listening, iterating, and not being afraid to change how things are done when evidence proves a better way.

She also highlighted a non-negotiable lever. Management buy-in. If leaders are not modeling the behaviors they want, employees will not risk being the only ones doing it. Sustainable culture starts at the top, then is reinforced through consistent habits, communication, and incentives.

Love as a Global Leadership Lens

Amanda’s Alifari research created one of the most human moments in the conversation. She expected love to be purely positive. Instead, people shared both their best and worst moments. Love surfaced heartbreak, loss, self-love, and resilience. Her biggest takeaway was that you never know what someone is carrying, even when they look fine.

That insight has direct leadership consequences. When someone drops the ball, snaps unexpectedly, or seems off, the most powerful move is not escalation. It is curiosity. “Are you okay. What is going on.” Leaders who practice that kind of presence build cultures that can endure stress without turning into fear-based systems.

Amanda defined love in a way that also fits business. She links it to happiness. If a relationship, professional or personal, consistently removes happiness, it deserves a serious reassessment. She also emphasized that love is multidimensional. People can love the job, the mission, the team, the customers, or the impact. Something in the work should create joy. That is part of what makes sustainability real.

A One-Step Practice Leaders Can Use This Month

Stephen asked Amanda to give leaders one tangible step they can take immediately. Her answer was direct: write down your personal ethics in detail. Make them explicit. Then ask whether you are actually showing up that way. If not, what must change. Next, audit your company against those same ethics and identify what must shift in how you operate.

It is deceptively simple and surprisingly rare. Many leaders have never been asked to put their ethics into words. That is why the exercise works. It forces clarity, and clarity creates alignment. Without that clarity, “ethics” becomes whatever is convenient in the moment.

Key Takeaways

• Sustainability is long-term thinking paired with short-term discipline, not a marketing claim.
• Kindness is truth delivered with compassion, not avoidance or sugarcoating.
• Loyalty is a performance lever. When people feel respected and safe, they work harder and innovate more.
• Innovation requires psychological safety. People cannot take meaningful risk when mistakes are punished.
• Systems and processes must evolve as companies learn. Sustainability requires iteration, not rigidity.
• Leaders should write down personal ethics and audit both themselves and the company against them.

Final Thoughts

Sustainable business practices and ethics are not separate from performance. They are the foundation of performance that lasts. Leaders who anchor decisions in long-term thinking, kindness, and clear ethics build organizations people want to stay in and customers want to trust.

Check out our full conversation with Amanda Fornal on The Bliss Business Podcast.

Originally Featured on The Bliss Business Podcast Blog